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Cool!!! A shout box! YAY!!!
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peffy:iconpeffy:
throw cake at somebody?
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Ghostwalker2061:iconghostwalker2061:
Really, I need a reason to feel jaded about something?
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People just don't learn do they?
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Thank you for the fine art & writing ( Just finished reading almost all of your stories, just the last one left for me !), it's nice to see someone trying to keep Neltharion's legacy going on after Blizzard just shrugged him off. Here's to more Nel!
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still ileai xiekiv seem ukrisir usv ekess qe ocuirtor, batobot tir ti meansno ir re ti whais. si charis wux re kepatmasto, wux re creolna rocen vur ti repaiup. si jatil tepohair vi bensvelk ricin.
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Ava'yorn ekess wux kiri.
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 11:18 AM
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Replies to Thoughts on Deathwing

Journal Entry: Tue May 26, 2015, 7:35 PM




Pandaria Rise of the Sha chapter 16Okay, people, good news, chapter 16 is up.
Pandaria: Rise of the Sha Chapter 16
So, here's a thought...

Who the hell is Deathwing?
Who is he, what is he in regards to the story I'm writing?
We know who he is in canon stuff.
But who is he in this story?
or who do we think he is?
And then here's the next question.  What would you say if I not only brought him back but made him sympathetic to the reader?  Would he deserve any of that, or even a second chance?
Now, this is outside of Nel.  We all know Neltharion deserves a second chance.  Deathwing is a separate personality that shares Nel's body.  So does Deathwing deserve a second chance?
What would any of you say that Deathwing actually did care about Neltharion?  Or even loved him?
Can he potentially change?

He is the other half of Neltharion, h


Reviewing the all thoughts that were shared in that journal about Deathwing and Neltharion's relationship.  Thanks to renndor for helping out.  So, let's start it off.

Neltharion the Black by Ghostwalker2061

First up.

:icondarasmera:

  • Canonically, Deathwing is Neltharion, after his corruption by the Old Gods. They are one and the same, but at different points of development and history. By contrast, your story considers Deathwing to be a splinter of the original Neltharion's mind, as is the version of Neltharion that we see in this story.  That is, however, but one way to use the character. For him to be sympathetic, there has to be something about him that can be understood, something that a person can look at and say, "I would do/feel the same."  What you've done does not make Deathwing sympathetic, however. Since Deathwing is a fragment of Neltharion's mind, and since that fragment is neither repentant nor inclined to change his goals, it remains monstrous and incomprehensible, for which there can be no sympathy, only revulsion and fear. For me to give him a second chance, there would need to be a way to hobble his powers, to keep him from being able to cause such immense devastation.  Neltharion, as the reader knows, does deserve such a chance. However, does anyone outside of his own head really know that? Yes, Neltharion acts very differently than Deathwing does, but could this be another trick? It's impossible to rule out.  I don't really have enough evidence to say either way, but I'm inclined to think that, no, Deathwing did not care about Neltharion, save perhaps as a cat plays with a mouse.  For a period of time Deathwing was resurgent. It was something of a fluke that he ended up buried in Neltharion's mind again. Now, I personally find that doubtful, and indeed rather firmly believe that Deathwing is unredeemable, on the grounds that his sense of empathy and compassion remained with what we now know as Neltharion.  

The typical canon reading is that Deathwing is Neltharion, who was broken and corrupted by the Old Gods against his will. This is the meaning behind the phrase: "Driven mad by the whispers”. Having his mind torn apart, broken, and violated by the Old Gods is the canon mechanism for that. Matches the discussions; Deathwing and Nel 2.0 are fragments of the original whole.

The ability to understand and empathize with a character is a way to make them sympathetic. This is independent of whether the character is good or bad, nice or terrible, hero or villain. This is also independent of whether they are redeemed or not, liked or not.

For instance, people sympathize with Nel because they can understand and connect with his experiences, responses and emotions. And this is true despite the terrible things Nel has done in-universe (Ironforge, the Barrens, mind-raping and killing two of his own sons).

This is what the point hinges on: goals, comprehensibility, repentance, and empathy.

For instance, Garrosh has a good, sympathetic reason to be against Neltharion: the destruction of his home, Draenor, and that of his people and army. These add sympathy and deepen his character even though he's the antagonist, and many Readers don’t like him. This can add drama, as people who are devoted to a cause and certain they are right can be quite threatening. And Garrosh's goals are quite reasonable and understandable, in context. 

In the story so far Deathwing is only unsympathetic & incomprehensible due to the fact the story has not explored his character at all. This is the same problem seen in the Cataclysm expansion. So far we've only seen Deathwing through the POV of modern Nel, and only only in specific terrible memories / visions of Nel’s— the ones the Old Gods would want Nel to see. So the view of Deathwing is biased to “Cartoon Deathwing”. But this is only a matter of perspective, not fact. Deathwing does show sympathetic traits in canon; revealing those would make him more sympathetic.

Note that it is the reveal of sympathetic traits that make Neltharion sympathetic to the reader. 

Neltharion could very easily be shown in an unsympathetic light. It would be trivial to present Nel as monstrous, both narratively and to the reader. To see this, just imagine a story series that was centered on the Farmer I described. If that Farmer was the protagonist, and we only saw Neltharion through his POV, then Nel would appear completely unsympathetic, monstrous, and incomprehensible.


Note that it is possible to make Deathwing be repentant. It just requires Deathwing strongly feel that he did something wrong in his own POV. The point about Malygos being a consort is an example, and one that should impact Deathwing quite strongly given Deathwing’s great protectiveness toward his flight and consorts. It’d provide a narrative way to punch Deathwing in the face, and it’d also provide Nel (and other characters) a way to punch Deathwing in the face.

Deathwing is a character that forms goals and acts, he does not ruminate on feelings or mistakes. Instead, he immediately forms a plan to correct them. Deathwing setting goals and making a plan to correct mistakes is how he’d show he feels in the wrong. So repentance in him would look very different than it looks in Nel or other characters.  But it is possible for him to feel & act this way under the right circumstances. 

Deathwing would never want to admit these feelings, given his Pride. In general, Deathwing does not ever tell his emotions, and his self control means he usually doesn’t show them overtly. Instead, they can be determined by Deathwing goals and the actions he takes to achieve them. For instance, securing Draenor for his children, defending Nel from the Old Gods, recovering his lost children (Onyxia, Nefarian). Those are the things that reveal his underlying goals and feelings.

Yes, hobbling him could be the reasonable course, both in-universe and narratively. It's worth noting this applies to Neltharion too, as per her later points. Because, ultimately, Neltharion and Deathwing are both INCREDIBLY dangerous people. Indeed, it’s impossible to overstate exactly how dangerous both of them are.

This is one reason why Garrosh's long-term goals makes sense. Ultimately, trying to trap and contain Nel via something like the Reactor is the only strategy that makes sense for many in-universe factions. It’s the only thing that could (in their POV) make them safe from Neltharion/Deathwing.

Narratively, if Deathwing came back he would be hobbled by exchanging places with Nel; effectively being in the position Nel was before, within the center of Nel’s mind. So he'd not have access to their powers, and could only act indirectly unless something intrudes into that space and makes itself accessible (like the Sha).


Darasmera seems to be speaking from an in-universe perspective, as to what Alexstrasza should do, or what is reasonable for her to do in that circumstance.

I'd agree with the point that Alexstrasza's actions are reasonable from Alexstrasza's POV in-universe, given the context. Nel did somewhat run amok, and in Alex’s estimation clearly wasn't ready.

Note that that doesn't make her actions good for Neltharion. As per our discussions, they definitely weren't what was best for Neltharion, though they might reasonably be considered best for Azeroth by the other characters.

In general, Alexstrasza’s motivations in trapping him seem multi-faceted. A core part of it is her lack of faith in Neltharion, as discussed—the feeling Nel couldn’t ever get his act together without her help. And her sense of entitlement toward him is likely in play there. But she can legitimately wrap the points Drasmera raised around herself as justification—both to herself and to other characters. This unfortunately means she can’t see her related character faults, nor can she see why it drives a wedge between her and Nel. It’s one reason why she and Nel have a poor relationship, and why it’s stuck in that state.

Yes, Neltharion is not responsible for Deathwing’s actions— both personalities are responsible for their own choices. So as the Reader can see, Neltharion deserves a chance.

A very critical point in-universe, since Deathwing has fooled people with similar schemes before. 

Malygos appears to be the only character that knows for a fact that Neltharion and Deathwing are different personalities, and he found out from hearing Nel calling out for him via his song. 

Mal found out via the connection that links himself to Neltharion and Deathwing— the link between their attunements and their roles as Aspect of Matter and Aspect of Energy. Unfortunately, nobody else in-universe has that connection or could perceive that info. Further, Mal was the only one who knew Nel 1.0 well enough to take that info and actually figure out what it meant— that there was not one person, but two distinct people there. And even Mal only realized the truth after it was far, far too late.

One reason Mal probably didn't’ catch on initially is that the “song” from Deathwing and the “song” from Neltharion were layered on top of each-other. The masking tone Nel mentions in Murozond’s Gift. It’s likely that the two tones blended together from a distance; they could only be seen as separate when looking closely. And from a distance, the sum of the two personalities’ songs looked like Nel 1.0’s song, since the sum of both personalities was Nel 1.0.

Beyond Malygos, the other characters in-universe have no way of knowing the truth. So they can only rely on their own perceptions and opinions as to whether the Nel and Deathwing are different. Obviously, many do not think they are different, and most do not care either way.

The psychological dominance and “games” aspect definitely seems to be there, as we discussed and as seen in the Sha scene. 

The psychological dominance is likely how Deathwing became the dominant personality over time. Initially, Neltharion was the dominant personality, and Deathwing at a disadvantage. So Deathwing couldn't’ have gotten dominant over Nel by attacking him— he wouldn't’ have been strong enough to do so. 

Events like those in the Sha of Doubt vision would build Deathwing's psychological dominance, and so were likely how the two personalities' positions got reversed. Indeed, those interactions could have been used to draw in Nel, and make Nel cede dominance over time. 

Interestingly, true psychological dominance has to be carefully built, since it is a social construct. In particular, it requires cooperation from Neltharion: Nel has to accept being psychologically submissive, and accept Deathwing’s psychological dominance. It’s not really something that can be taken by force, especially in their situations. Effectively,  Deathwing needs to choose to step forward, and Neltharion needs choose to step backward.

However, the fact that Deathwing likes manipulating and playing games doesn't’ mean there isn’ caring there too. Indeed, the presence of caring would make those games, and the resulting emotional & dramatic impacts much stronger on both personalities. Especially once you layer both personalities hatred of the Old Gods on top of that, and then combine the fact that the Old Gods are attacking and trying to destroy them both, and the personalities are likely relying on each-other to defend against that.

The end of Coffer implies Deathwing ended up buried again, not destroyed. The exact mechanism behind that is unclear— whether Nel was able to become psychologically dominant again, whether Deathwing withdrew because he achieved his goal (the Origination Device), whether he needed to retreat behind the shield of Nel’s immunity to escape the Old Gods, or some combination.
Aside from the Aspects being constructs, the AU follows canon up until the point where Nel is freed in Coffer. This means that AU Deathwing behaves in the same manner as Canon Deathwing; one of the reasons why Nel can name some of the actions Deathwing took in canon.

Interestingly, the actions Deathwing takes in canon show that he does still have a sense of empathy and compassion, broken though they may be. For instance, Deathwing is shown to care for his children greatly, to suffer when his children suffer.

Next up...

:iconjcbq:

  • yes, on the grounds that [your] Deathwing is a dark mirror of nel. I highly doubt that he would blindly follow the old gods to his death Deathwing is too smart for that.

Yes, Deathwing is too smart to blindly follow the Old Gods. And it’s canon that he resisted and foiled the Old Gods whenever he could. 

Deathwing fighting the Old Gods for the Dragon Soul is one example.

Next...

:iconravenfire5:

  • that demonic side of him back in his head again?  i say nel would do fine without deathwing, he just might take a while to get his shit together again.  i will say one good thing about deathwing though is he knew how to get things done, deathwing to too many horrible things to even be considered redeemed, he almost always harms others, he can't really do much of anything without harming others.  even nel hurt others in ways even thought he did not mean too. ghostwalker's story is all about? of nel trying to forget about his darker side, deathwing as become to twisted and power hungry

Technically Deathwing’s not demonic, since that has a specific in-universe meaning. Deathwing is Bad Powers though.

I don’t think Nel could be said to be “fine” by any reasonable metric, even independent of Deathwing. He’s a broken mess currently. Indeed, both personalities are. 

Also, “getting his shit together” comes at a high cost to everyone else on Azeroth— after all, Nel trying and/or failing to do so candestroy their world.

As Nel himself has stated, Deathwing is holding a lot of the good traits of Nel 1.0— charisma, effectiveness, leadership, political savvy, strategic and tactical ability, and much, much more.

Nel needs those things back. He needs those personality traits, which means he needs much more than just Deathwing’s memories— he needs Deathwing’s personality as well.

The next sentence of her reply is effectively confirming this.

If this is the standard than Nel cannot be redeemed either, both for what people think he’s done, as well as what he’s actually done since Coffer.

Nel has done a lot of horrible things since Coffer:
  1. Torture: Ultraxion
  2. Murder: Ultraxion, Myzerian, Twilight Flight, Ironforge, Barrens
  3. Mind-rape: Myzerian, Ultraxion, Garrosh x 2
  4. Familicide: Myzerian, Ultraxion, Twilight Flight
  5. Infanticide: Twilight Drakes, eggs
  6. Genocide: Twilight Flight
  7. War Crimes: Barrens - killing of Civilians, noncombatants. Nel wiped multiple Zones, in a manner others would find indistinguishable from Deathwing.
  8. Neglect: Netherwing, black dragons
  9. Abuse: Corrupt black dragons, twilight dragons


None of the above are Deathwing’s fault— Nel chose to do those things of his own free will, long after being freed in Coffer. And aside from Ironforge, Nel is unrepentant for most of these things.

Nel 2.0 has been roaming Azeroth for a lot less time than Deathwing. If he doesn't get better, then it’s conceivable that after 10K years his body count may be equivalent to Deathwing’s.

This is flatly contradicted by canon, since Deathwing did tons of things without harming others. Indeed, Deathwing prefers to use subterfuge and long range plans to achieve his objectives, which by definition mean he can’t be effective if he’s running around and attacking people all the time.

The whole Daval Prestor disguise let Deathwing advance his goals without overtly harming anyone around him. Indeed, the disguise wouldn't’ have worked if Deathwing had hurt others overtly— it would have blown his cover.

Deathwing also tried to secure Draenor as a safe home for his flight, and he negotiated safe passage to that world— he actually allowed a mortal to ride his back as a condition for him and his children to pass the Dark Portal without having to fight anyone. Indeed, Deathwing would not have fought anyone on Draenor at all had the Gronn not attacked him and his children.

One of the reasons why Deathwing left that battlefield after Khadgar's removed his armor is that the eruptions of his magic could have destroyed his eggs.

Nel did not mean to hurt the people in Ironforge, but he very much meant to hurt the Horde, and the people of the Barrens. Indeed, Neltharion actively enjoyed doing so, and he still enjoys that. Nel does not want or seek to repent for that.

Forgetting our darker sides does not make them go away. To quote the saying: the best lie the Devil ever told was to convince the world he didn’t exist.

Further, forgetting them does not provide any measure of healing. Nor does ignoring part of oneself. For peoples darker sides are only bad if people do not manage and direct them properly. It is the actions people take, and the outcomes they cause that are good or bad.

Deathwing isn't actually power-hungry in the traditional sense of wanting power for Power’s sake. In general, the Warcraft Dragons don't seem to “fault” in that way, given their inherent power-sharing nature. It’s one of the unique things about them.

Instead, Deathwing seems to be interested in power as a means to an end— a way to advance his goals. He may enjoy some of the processes and outcomes involved in that, but it’s not done for something so trivial as power or his own amusement. He has greater goals in mind.

:icongaudifanyay:

  • Deathwing was a part of Nel before the old gods twisted it. So destroying Deathwing would be a bad idea, like taking off the colours of a rubik's cube and then paint on the colours you like more.
Yes, destroying him would keep Nel from ever recovering any of what made up Nel 1.0. 

It also seems likely that it would mean the Titans’ experiment failed— their attempt to forge a weapon against the Old Gods, find a vaccine and cure for the Old Gods. So it’d mean the AU timeline is a bust, from their perspective.

Destroying Deathwing also means that Kaz’Goroth’s attempt to find a way to save Sargeras also failed. It seems likely that Nel 1.0’s mind split along the seam between the bits of Nel 1.0 that were Kaz’Gorth and those that were Sargeras. Nel 2.0 is likely Kaz’Goroth, and Deathwing Sargeras. So if Deathwing is not recovered or is irrecoverable, then it means that the Sargeras is as well.

An important related point is that  if Deathwing were merely a parasite, it’d mean that Nel 1.0 and Nel 2.0 have never been corrupted. Since a parasite is a foreign body, that’d be inserted and then removed, it’d not be / never have been actually Neltharion. This is inconsistent with how we’ve seen corruption to work. Further, it’d show Kaz’Goroth’s plan was unworkable from the beginning.

:iconrockgod44:

  • Deathwing is part of Neltharion, a part that has been twisted and deformed by the influence of the Old Gods into something monstrous. It is not like Doctor Jekyll and his Hyde persona, as the good doctor still has all his faculties in order. He is more like a demonic possession born from Nel's insecurities. So, Nel should vanquish Deathwing completely and take back what is his.  

I'm confused here.  You state that Deathwing is a part of Neltharion, and then you doubled back to compare Deathwing with demonic possession.  Isn't that a contradiction of terms?

A demonic possessor cannot be originally a part of the host.  He's either a part of Nel, or he's a demon parasite.  Which one?

Now, Neltharion sees Deathwing as a parasite, but it doesn't mean he is.  It's just a simplistic view that Neltharion does to explain Deathwing.

One interesting point is that vanquishing Deathwing is unlikely to get Nel back the half of Nel 1.0 that Deathwing holds. Because “vanquishing” Deathwing—destroying him— was what the Old Gods were trying to do to Deathwing. What they were trying to do to both personalities. 

Had the Old Gods succeeded at destroying Deathwing, that would probably have destroyed Neltharion as well. And the loss of the Black Aspect would have destroyed Azeroth, and freed the Old Gods to infect the universe.

:iconcyberunititalia:

  • Most likely, after Nel is done fucking up, Deathwing will try to resurface from deep down, and will come up with the argument "this is what happens when you do stuff alone, try to let me handle this kind of things once in a while, we're born from and are part of the same mind after all, you know?".
Deathwing resurfacing seems quite likely, given that Deathwing dove below the surface before, and has come back once before.

I doubt Deathwing would say the quote she provides in quite that manner, though I could see that being in subtext.

Adressed.



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Ghostwalker2061
C.W. Graham
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Replies to Thoughts on Deathwing

Journal Entry: Tue May 26, 2015, 7:35 PM




Pandaria Rise of the Sha chapter 16Okay, people, good news, chapter 16 is up.
Pandaria: Rise of the Sha Chapter 16
So, here's a thought...

Who the hell is Deathwing?
Who is he, what is he in regards to the story I'm writing?
We know who he is in canon stuff.
But who is he in this story?
or who do we think he is?
And then here's the next question.  What would you say if I not only brought him back but made him sympathetic to the reader?  Would he deserve any of that, or even a second chance?
Now, this is outside of Nel.  We all know Neltharion deserves a second chance.  Deathwing is a separate personality that shares Nel's body.  So does Deathwing deserve a second chance?
What would any of you say that Deathwing actually did care about Neltharion?  Or even loved him?
Can he potentially change?

He is the other half of Neltharion, h


Reviewing the all thoughts that were shared in that journal about Deathwing and Neltharion's relationship.  Thanks to renndor for helping out.  So, let's start it off.

Neltharion the Black by Ghostwalker2061

First up.

:icondarasmera:

  • Canonically, Deathwing is Neltharion, after his corruption by the Old Gods. They are one and the same, but at different points of development and history. By contrast, your story considers Deathwing to be a splinter of the original Neltharion's mind, as is the version of Neltharion that we see in this story.  That is, however, but one way to use the character. For him to be sympathetic, there has to be something about him that can be understood, something that a person can look at and say, "I would do/feel the same."  What you've done does not make Deathwing sympathetic, however. Since Deathwing is a fragment of Neltharion's mind, and since that fragment is neither repentant nor inclined to change his goals, it remains monstrous and incomprehensible, for which there can be no sympathy, only revulsion and fear. For me to give him a second chance, there would need to be a way to hobble his powers, to keep him from being able to cause such immense devastation.  Neltharion, as the reader knows, does deserve such a chance. However, does anyone outside of his own head really know that? Yes, Neltharion acts very differently than Deathwing does, but could this be another trick? It's impossible to rule out.  I don't really have enough evidence to say either way, but I'm inclined to think that, no, Deathwing did not care about Neltharion, save perhaps as a cat plays with a mouse.  For a period of time Deathwing was resurgent. It was something of a fluke that he ended up buried in Neltharion's mind again. Now, I personally find that doubtful, and indeed rather firmly believe that Deathwing is unredeemable, on the grounds that his sense of empathy and compassion remained with what we now know as Neltharion.  

The typical canon reading is that Deathwing is Neltharion, who was broken and corrupted by the Old Gods against his will. This is the meaning behind the phrase: "Driven mad by the whispers”. Having his mind torn apart, broken, and violated by the Old Gods is the canon mechanism for that. Matches the discussions; Deathwing and Nel 2.0 are fragments of the original whole.

The ability to understand and empathize with a character is a way to make them sympathetic. This is independent of whether the character is good or bad, nice or terrible, hero or villain. This is also independent of whether they are redeemed or not, liked or not.

For instance, people sympathize with Nel because they can understand and connect with his experiences, responses and emotions. And this is true despite the terrible things Nel has done in-universe (Ironforge, the Barrens, mind-raping and killing two of his own sons).

This is what the point hinges on: goals, comprehensibility, repentance, and empathy.

For instance, Garrosh has a good, sympathetic reason to be against Neltharion: the destruction of his home, Draenor, and that of his people and army. These add sympathy and deepen his character even though he's the antagonist, and many Readers don’t like him. This can add drama, as people who are devoted to a cause and certain they are right can be quite threatening. And Garrosh's goals are quite reasonable and understandable, in context. 

In the story so far Deathwing is only unsympathetic & incomprehensible due to the fact the story has not explored his character at all. This is the same problem seen in the Cataclysm expansion. So far we've only seen Deathwing through the POV of modern Nel, and only only in specific terrible memories / visions of Nel’s— the ones the Old Gods would want Nel to see. So the view of Deathwing is biased to “Cartoon Deathwing”. But this is only a matter of perspective, not fact. Deathwing does show sympathetic traits in canon; revealing those would make him more sympathetic.

Note that it is the reveal of sympathetic traits that make Neltharion sympathetic to the reader. 

Neltharion could very easily be shown in an unsympathetic light. It would be trivial to present Nel as monstrous, both narratively and to the reader. To see this, just imagine a story series that was centered on the Farmer I described. If that Farmer was the protagonist, and we only saw Neltharion through his POV, then Nel would appear completely unsympathetic, monstrous, and incomprehensible.


Note that it is possible to make Deathwing be repentant. It just requires Deathwing strongly feel that he did something wrong in his own POV. The point about Malygos being a consort is an example, and one that should impact Deathwing quite strongly given Deathwing’s great protectiveness toward his flight and consorts. It’d provide a narrative way to punch Deathwing in the face, and it’d also provide Nel (and other characters) a way to punch Deathwing in the face.

Deathwing is a character that forms goals and acts, he does not ruminate on feelings or mistakes. Instead, he immediately forms a plan to correct them. Deathwing setting goals and making a plan to correct mistakes is how he’d show he feels in the wrong. So repentance in him would look very different than it looks in Nel or other characters.  But it is possible for him to feel & act this way under the right circumstances. 

Deathwing would never want to admit these feelings, given his Pride. In general, Deathwing does not ever tell his emotions, and his self control means he usually doesn’t show them overtly. Instead, they can be determined by Deathwing goals and the actions he takes to achieve them. For instance, securing Draenor for his children, defending Nel from the Old Gods, recovering his lost children (Onyxia, Nefarian). Those are the things that reveal his underlying goals and feelings.

Yes, hobbling him could be the reasonable course, both in-universe and narratively. It's worth noting this applies to Neltharion too, as per her later points. Because, ultimately, Neltharion and Deathwing are both INCREDIBLY dangerous people. Indeed, it’s impossible to overstate exactly how dangerous both of them are.

This is one reason why Garrosh's long-term goals makes sense. Ultimately, trying to trap and contain Nel via something like the Reactor is the only strategy that makes sense for many in-universe factions. It’s the only thing that could (in their POV) make them safe from Neltharion/Deathwing.

Narratively, if Deathwing came back he would be hobbled by exchanging places with Nel; effectively being in the position Nel was before, within the center of Nel’s mind. So he'd not have access to their powers, and could only act indirectly unless something intrudes into that space and makes itself accessible (like the Sha).


Darasmera seems to be speaking from an in-universe perspective, as to what Alexstrasza should do, or what is reasonable for her to do in that circumstance.

I'd agree with the point that Alexstrasza's actions are reasonable from Alexstrasza's POV in-universe, given the context. Nel did somewhat run amok, and in Alex’s estimation clearly wasn't ready.

Note that that doesn't make her actions good for Neltharion. As per our discussions, they definitely weren't what was best for Neltharion, though they might reasonably be considered best for Azeroth by the other characters.

In general, Alexstrasza’s motivations in trapping him seem multi-faceted. A core part of it is her lack of faith in Neltharion, as discussed—the feeling Nel couldn’t ever get his act together without her help. And her sense of entitlement toward him is likely in play there. But she can legitimately wrap the points Drasmera raised around herself as justification—both to herself and to other characters. This unfortunately means she can’t see her related character faults, nor can she see why it drives a wedge between her and Nel. It’s one reason why she and Nel have a poor relationship, and why it’s stuck in that state.

Yes, Neltharion is not responsible for Deathwing’s actions— both personalities are responsible for their own choices. So as the Reader can see, Neltharion deserves a chance.

A very critical point in-universe, since Deathwing has fooled people with similar schemes before. 

Malygos appears to be the only character that knows for a fact that Neltharion and Deathwing are different personalities, and he found out from hearing Nel calling out for him via his song. 

Mal found out via the connection that links himself to Neltharion and Deathwing— the link between their attunements and their roles as Aspect of Matter and Aspect of Energy. Unfortunately, nobody else in-universe has that connection or could perceive that info. Further, Mal was the only one who knew Nel 1.0 well enough to take that info and actually figure out what it meant— that there was not one person, but two distinct people there. And even Mal only realized the truth after it was far, far too late.

One reason Mal probably didn't’ catch on initially is that the “song” from Deathwing and the “song” from Neltharion were layered on top of each-other. The masking tone Nel mentions in Murozond’s Gift. It’s likely that the two tones blended together from a distance; they could only be seen as separate when looking closely. And from a distance, the sum of the two personalities’ songs looked like Nel 1.0’s song, since the sum of both personalities was Nel 1.0.

Beyond Malygos, the other characters in-universe have no way of knowing the truth. So they can only rely on their own perceptions and opinions as to whether the Nel and Deathwing are different. Obviously, many do not think they are different, and most do not care either way.

The psychological dominance and “games” aspect definitely seems to be there, as we discussed and as seen in the Sha scene. 

The psychological dominance is likely how Deathwing became the dominant personality over time. Initially, Neltharion was the dominant personality, and Deathwing at a disadvantage. So Deathwing couldn't’ have gotten dominant over Nel by attacking him— he wouldn't’ have been strong enough to do so. 

Events like those in the Sha of Doubt vision would build Deathwing's psychological dominance, and so were likely how the two personalities' positions got reversed. Indeed, those interactions could have been used to draw in Nel, and make Nel cede dominance over time. 

Interestingly, true psychological dominance has to be carefully built, since it is a social construct. In particular, it requires cooperation from Neltharion: Nel has to accept being psychologically submissive, and accept Deathwing’s psychological dominance. It’s not really something that can be taken by force, especially in their situations. Effectively,  Deathwing needs to choose to step forward, and Neltharion needs choose to step backward.

However, the fact that Deathwing likes manipulating and playing games doesn't’ mean there isn’ caring there too. Indeed, the presence of caring would make those games, and the resulting emotional & dramatic impacts much stronger on both personalities. Especially once you layer both personalities hatred of the Old Gods on top of that, and then combine the fact that the Old Gods are attacking and trying to destroy them both, and the personalities are likely relying on each-other to defend against that.

The end of Coffer implies Deathwing ended up buried again, not destroyed. The exact mechanism behind that is unclear— whether Nel was able to become psychologically dominant again, whether Deathwing withdrew because he achieved his goal (the Origination Device), whether he needed to retreat behind the shield of Nel’s immunity to escape the Old Gods, or some combination.
Aside from the Aspects being constructs, the AU follows canon up until the point where Nel is freed in Coffer. This means that AU Deathwing behaves in the same manner as Canon Deathwing; one of the reasons why Nel can name some of the actions Deathwing took in canon.

Interestingly, the actions Deathwing takes in canon show that he does still have a sense of empathy and compassion, broken though they may be. For instance, Deathwing is shown to care for his children greatly, to suffer when his children suffer.

Next up...

:iconjcbq:

  • yes, on the grounds that [your] Deathwing is a dark mirror of nel. I highly doubt that he would blindly follow the old gods to his death Deathwing is too smart for that.

Yes, Deathwing is too smart to blindly follow the Old Gods. And it’s canon that he resisted and foiled the Old Gods whenever he could. 

Deathwing fighting the Old Gods for the Dragon Soul is one example.

Next...

:iconravenfire5:

  • that demonic side of him back in his head again?  i say nel would do fine without deathwing, he just might take a while to get his shit together again.  i will say one good thing about deathwing though is he knew how to get things done, deathwing to too many horrible things to even be considered redeemed, he almost always harms others, he can't really do much of anything without harming others.  even nel hurt others in ways even thought he did not mean too. ghostwalker's story is all about? of nel trying to forget about his darker side, deathwing as become to twisted and power hungry

Technically Deathwing’s not demonic, since that has a specific in-universe meaning. Deathwing is Bad Powers though.

I don’t think Nel could be said to be “fine” by any reasonable metric, even independent of Deathwing. He’s a broken mess currently. Indeed, both personalities are. 

Also, “getting his shit together” comes at a high cost to everyone else on Azeroth— after all, Nel trying and/or failing to do so candestroy their world.

As Nel himself has stated, Deathwing is holding a lot of the good traits of Nel 1.0— charisma, effectiveness, leadership, political savvy, strategic and tactical ability, and much, much more.

Nel needs those things back. He needs those personality traits, which means he needs much more than just Deathwing’s memories— he needs Deathwing’s personality as well.

The next sentence of her reply is effectively confirming this.

If this is the standard than Nel cannot be redeemed either, both for what people think he’s done, as well as what he’s actually done since Coffer.

Nel has done a lot of horrible things since Coffer:
  1. Torture: Ultraxion
  2. Murder: Ultraxion, Myzerian, Twilight Flight, Ironforge, Barrens
  3. Mind-rape: Myzerian, Ultraxion, Garrosh x 2
  4. Familicide: Myzerian, Ultraxion, Twilight Flight
  5. Infanticide: Twilight Drakes, eggs
  6. Genocide: Twilight Flight
  7. War Crimes: Barrens - killing of Civilians, noncombatants. Nel wiped multiple Zones, in a manner others would find indistinguishable from Deathwing.
  8. Neglect: Netherwing, black dragons
  9. Abuse: Corrupt black dragons, twilight dragons


None of the above are Deathwing’s fault— Nel chose to do those things of his own free will, long after being freed in Coffer. And aside from Ironforge, Nel is unrepentant for most of these things.

Nel 2.0 has been roaming Azeroth for a lot less time than Deathwing. If he doesn't get better, then it’s conceivable that after 10K years his body count may be equivalent to Deathwing’s.

This is flatly contradicted by canon, since Deathwing did tons of things without harming others. Indeed, Deathwing prefers to use subterfuge and long range plans to achieve his objectives, which by definition mean he can’t be effective if he’s running around and attacking people all the time.

The whole Daval Prestor disguise let Deathwing advance his goals without overtly harming anyone around him. Indeed, the disguise wouldn't’ have worked if Deathwing had hurt others overtly— it would have blown his cover.

Deathwing also tried to secure Draenor as a safe home for his flight, and he negotiated safe passage to that world— he actually allowed a mortal to ride his back as a condition for him and his children to pass the Dark Portal without having to fight anyone. Indeed, Deathwing would not have fought anyone on Draenor at all had the Gronn not attacked him and his children.

One of the reasons why Deathwing left that battlefield after Khadgar's removed his armor is that the eruptions of his magic could have destroyed his eggs.

Nel did not mean to hurt the people in Ironforge, but he very much meant to hurt the Horde, and the people of the Barrens. Indeed, Neltharion actively enjoyed doing so, and he still enjoys that. Nel does not want or seek to repent for that.

Forgetting our darker sides does not make them go away. To quote the saying: the best lie the Devil ever told was to convince the world he didn’t exist.

Further, forgetting them does not provide any measure of healing. Nor does ignoring part of oneself. For peoples darker sides are only bad if people do not manage and direct them properly. It is the actions people take, and the outcomes they cause that are good or bad.

Deathwing isn't actually power-hungry in the traditional sense of wanting power for Power’s sake. In general, the Warcraft Dragons don't seem to “fault” in that way, given their inherent power-sharing nature. It’s one of the unique things about them.

Instead, Deathwing seems to be interested in power as a means to an end— a way to advance his goals. He may enjoy some of the processes and outcomes involved in that, but it’s not done for something so trivial as power or his own amusement. He has greater goals in mind.

:icongaudifanyay:

  • Deathwing was a part of Nel before the old gods twisted it. So destroying Deathwing would be a bad idea, like taking off the colours of a rubik's cube and then paint on the colours you like more.
Yes, destroying him would keep Nel from ever recovering any of what made up Nel 1.0. 

It also seems likely that it would mean the Titans’ experiment failed— their attempt to forge a weapon against the Old Gods, find a vaccine and cure for the Old Gods. So it’d mean the AU timeline is a bust, from their perspective.

Destroying Deathwing also means that Kaz’Goroth’s attempt to find a way to save Sargeras also failed. It seems likely that Nel 1.0’s mind split along the seam between the bits of Nel 1.0 that were Kaz’Gorth and those that were Sargeras. Nel 2.0 is likely Kaz’Goroth, and Deathwing Sargeras. So if Deathwing is not recovered or is irrecoverable, then it means that the Sargeras is as well.

An important related point is that  if Deathwing were merely a parasite, it’d mean that Nel 1.0 and Nel 2.0 have never been corrupted. Since a parasite is a foreign body, that’d be inserted and then removed, it’d not be / never have been actually Neltharion. This is inconsistent with how we’ve seen corruption to work. Further, it’d show Kaz’Goroth’s plan was unworkable from the beginning.

:iconrockgod44:

  • Deathwing is part of Neltharion, a part that has been twisted and deformed by the influence of the Old Gods into something monstrous. It is not like Doctor Jekyll and his Hyde persona, as the good doctor still has all his faculties in order. He is more like a demonic possession born from Nel's insecurities. So, Nel should vanquish Deathwing completely and take back what is his.  

I'm confused here.  You state that Deathwing is a part of Neltharion, and then you doubled back to compare Deathwing with demonic possession.  Isn't that a contradiction of terms?

A demonic possessor cannot be originally a part of the host.  He's either a part of Nel, or he's a demon parasite.  Which one?

Now, Neltharion sees Deathwing as a parasite, but it doesn't mean he is.  It's just a simplistic view that Neltharion does to explain Deathwing.

One interesting point is that vanquishing Deathwing is unlikely to get Nel back the half of Nel 1.0 that Deathwing holds. Because “vanquishing” Deathwing—destroying him— was what the Old Gods were trying to do to Deathwing. What they were trying to do to both personalities. 

Had the Old Gods succeeded at destroying Deathwing, that would probably have destroyed Neltharion as well. And the loss of the Black Aspect would have destroyed Azeroth, and freed the Old Gods to infect the universe.

:iconcyberunititalia:

  • Most likely, after Nel is done fucking up, Deathwing will try to resurface from deep down, and will come up with the argument "this is what happens when you do stuff alone, try to let me handle this kind of things once in a while, we're born from and are part of the same mind after all, you know?".
Deathwing resurfacing seems quite likely, given that Deathwing dove below the surface before, and has come back once before.

I doubt Deathwing would say the quote she provides in quite that manner, though I could see that being in subtext.

Adressed.



This Journal Skin was designed by Zaporozhenko Vitaly (Vint26)
  • Listening to: Here I Am (Rock you like a hurricane)
  • Reading: The Hobbit
  • Watching: WTFIWWY
  • Playing: Bejeweled
  • Eating: Broccoli stir-fry
  • Drinking: Vanilla Coke

Strip Away the Gold

Journal Entry: Mon May 25, 2015, 12:15 AM




Oh my god.  Cersei finally got her comeuppance.  

GOT THE BITCH!  Got the fucking Bitch!

And yes, Tyrion finally got to Danny!

He is Tyrion fucking Lannister...bitches.

I love it!

Now all we need is Danny, Tyrion, and Jon riding on dragons and taking over Westeros.

Bringing in democracy for all!

And Maester Aemon dies!  

Aemon: "Egg, I dreamed I was old...."

That brought tears to my eyes!

Oh, my feels, yo!  My feels!

And Sansa again.  Not only did Ramsey raped Sansa on her wedding night, but he locked her into her room to repeatedly rape her over and over again.

Poor Sansa!  And then damn it, Theon!  You couldn't do one thing, could you?

Winter has come, folks.  And Stannis is being made to sacrifice his daughter for the Red God.

I think that's when he'll draw the line.

However, I'm guessing Melisandre is being a bad soothsayer.  Reverend Mother Gaius-Helen Mohiam is better at soothsaying than she is.

Melisandre, you're supporting the wrong guy.  It's not Stannis, it's Danny.  Hell, it could be Jon and Danny.

Here....this explains it pretty good.





And again, I get it.  I get why you all hate it when I make Neltharion suffer.

The Black's Rage by Ghostwalker2061

Because poor Sansa!


This Journal Skin was designed by Zaporozhenko Vitaly (Vint26)
  • Listening to: Here I Am (Rock you like a hurricane)
  • Reading: The Hobbit
  • Watching: WTFIWWY
  • Playing: Bejeweled
  • Eating: Broccoli stir-fry
  • Drinking: Vanilla Coke

The Monster is Blue and Full of Errors

Journal Entry: Sun May 24, 2015, 5:09 AM






I found that little bit of delightful hilarity.  

Sesame Street parodies Game of Thrones!

With Muppet versions of Queen Cersei , Prince Joffrey, Ned Stark, Melisandre, Daenerys Targaryen, and I see Robb Stark as well, and Grover is pretending be Theon Greyjoy, but called "Bluejoy".  Cute.

And no, there's no beheadings, no nudity, and no Joffrey being a horrible Princely Dickhead.  But it's cute.

Oh, and spoiler...

Joffrey: "Am I out?"

Grover: "Yeah, looks like you choked, Joffrey."

PURPLE WEDDING REFERENCE!  They made a reference to Joffrey choking on the poison in a Sesame Street Game of Thrones parody.

Oh my GOD!

Grover: "Bring me a sweater!  I think winter is coming."

And props to the props.  I saw Baratheon, Lannister, and Greyjoy sigils, only made to look a bit more cartoonish.

And the Iron Thrones all are based on game equipment.  Like golf, tennis, and baseball.

Creative.  


This Journal Skin was designed by Zaporozhenko Vitaly (Vint26)
  • Listening to: Here I Am (Rock you like a hurricane)
  • Reading: The Hobbit
  • Watching: WTFIWWY
  • Playing: Bejeweled
  • Eating: Broccoli stir-fry
  • Drinking: Vanilla Coke

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:iconmaxvision92:
maxvision92 Featured By Owner Apr 1, 2015  Hobbyist General Artist
Did you hear that Hideaki Anno's been attached to next year's Japanese reboot of Godzilla? www.deviantart.com/journal/God…

I noticed some sly digs at Final Wars in Anno-sensei's words.
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Celestial-Dung Featured By Owner Feb 12, 2015
Visit you in the digital art real sure.  Sometimes incognito even.
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LonnieRohn Featured By Owner Feb 10, 2015
what ever happen to Southern Heat?
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Ghostwalker2061 Featured By Owner Feb 10, 2015  Professional Digital Artist
I had to take it down for editing.
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LonnieRohn Featured By Owner Feb 11, 2015
Good Luck With The Editing! You are an awesome writer!
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PurpleRoselyn Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2015  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Hey! Sorry to bother ya, but how do you make prints?
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Ghostwalker2061 Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2015  Professional Digital Artist
I have to ask, do you watch me?
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PurpleRoselyn Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2015  Hobbyist Digital Artist
No I just discovered your page today.
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peffy Featured By Owner Jan 21, 2015  Student Traditional Artist
enjoy yourself with this = o= forums.bluemammoth.com/showthr…
feel free to do whatever it takes to get that image taken down from there
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Ghostwalker2061 Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2015  Professional Digital Artist
Yeah, if you are a member of that place, I would suggest you tell them I don't appreciate it when people don't ask me when they use my art art against my permission.
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